There's a whole slew of Weatherup records in this part of County Antrim, discuss them here!
So far we've come across mentions of Weatherup's in connection with Carrickfergus, Slievetrue, Straid, Ballyclare, Ballynure, and numerous other points inbetween or nearby. Further, since the Larne/Glynn/Ballyvernstown Weatherup's are understood to be a branch of these Weatherup's, they're fair game here as well.
I welcome anyone researching the Weatherup's (and spelling variations thereof) of this area, or anyone personally familiar with the area to join in and comment on the discussion.
Here's the full Griffith's entries for this area:
ReplyDeleteThere are 14 entries in Griffiths Valuation (1862) in this area of Weatherup's, Weatherop's, & Witherup's, and one Dorman entry which I've also transcribed.
Format:
Name
Immediate Lessor & Transcript page #
Place
Lot #
Description. Office(s) includes any economic related structure that is not just a dwelling, thus factories, mills, and farm outbuildings such as stables, shed's, barns, etc.
Area in Acres, / Roods / Perches (40 square Perches to a Rood & 4 Roods to an Acre)
Taxable or Rateable Annual Valuation: Land, Buildings, total each measured in pounds / shillings / pence (12 pence to a shilling and 20 shillings to a pound)
A-J
#1:
Andrew Witherup
Richardson brothers (flax spinners, who in turn are immediate lessors of the Marquis of Downshire)
West Division (Twnland), Carrickfergus/St. Nicholas (Parish), Larne (Union), Carrickfergus (Town of)(Barony)
house g in lot 126 valued at 15 shillings
#2:
David Witherup
Marquis of Downshire pg 92
Dairyland, Dairyland (Twnlnd), Ballynure (Parish), Larne (Union), Lower Belfast
Lot 10
house, offices, and land
numbers not legible, but acres and pound valuation are both double digits
#3:
James Weatherup
Representatives of John Legge pg 149
West Street, Carrickfergus (Twnland), Carrickfergus/St. Nicholas (Parish), Larne (Union), Carrickfergus (Town of)(Barony)
Lot 39
House, Offices, and yard
-
-, 17/0/0, 17/0/0
#4:
James Weatherup "and another"
James Wilson pg 151
West Irish Quarter, Carrickfergus (Twnland), Carrickfergus/St. Nicholas (Parish), Larne (Union), Carrickfergus (Town of)(Barony)
Lot 11
House
-
-, 2/10/0, 2/10/0
#5:
James Witherup
Thomas Witherup pg. 167
Ballynere, Middle Division (Twnlnd), Carrickfergus/St. Nicholas (Parish), Larne (Union), Carrickfergus (Town of)(Barony)
Lot 148 b
House and office
-
-, 1/0/0, 1/0/0
#6:
John Witherup
Marquis of Downshire pg 92
Dairyland (Twnlnd), Ballynure (Parish), Larne (Union), Lower Belfast
Lot 3
House, offices, and land
acreage hard to read, looks like 25/2/30
18/10/0, 1/10/0, 20/0/0
#7:
John Witherup
Marquis of Downshire pg 169
West Division (Twnland), Carrickfergus/St. Nicholas (Parish), Larne (Union), Carrickfergus (Town of)(Barony)
Lot 12
House, offices, nad land
33/2/5
15/0/0, 2/0/0, 17/0/0
S-W and one Dorman entry coming up
(cont.) S-W & a Dorman entry
ReplyDelete#8:
Samuel Witherup
Marquis of Downshire pg 169
West Division (Twnland), Carrickfergus/St. Nicholas (Parish), Larne (Union), Carrickfergus (Town of)(Barony)
Lot 13
House, offices, and land
34/2/25
16/10/0, 2/10/0, 19/0/0
#9:
Samuel Witherup
Marquis of Downshire pg 170
West Division (Twnland), Carrickfergus/St. Nicholas (Parish), Larne (Union), Carrickfergus (Town of)(Barony)
Lot 23
House, offices, and land
33/2/30
17/15/0, 0/15/0, 18/10/0
#10:
Thomas Weatherop
William Stewart pg 144
Taylor's Avenue, Carrickfergus (Twnlnd), Carrickfergus/St. Nicholas (Parish), Larne (Union), Carrickfergus (Town of)(Barony)
Lot 1
House and Garden
0/0/10
0/5/0, 1/10/0, 1/15/0
#11:
Thomas Witherup
Valentine W. Magill pg 167
Ballynere, Middle Division (Twnlnd), Carrickfergus/St. Nicholas (Parish), Larne (Union), Carrickfergus (Town of)(Barony)
Lot 148 a
House, Offices, and Land
28/1/0
13/10/0, 1/5/0, 14/15/0
see also James, 148 b leased from Thomas & Thomas in 150 leased from Valentine W. Magill
#12:
Thomas Witherup
Valentine W. Magill pg 167
Ballynere, Middle Division (Twnlnd), Carrickfergus/St. Nicholas (Parish), Larne (Union), Carrickfergus (Town of)(Barony)
one of 6* names on Lot 150, all but the 1st (David Martin) have a large handwritten X next to it. (*=7 if you count the apparently repeated David Martin entry) (the following might be meant to only apply to the David Martin entry or might be all 6 collectively)
house, offices, and land
21/3/0
11/10/0, 1/5/0, 12/15/0
#13:
William Witherup
Jane D. Wilson pg 169
West Division (Townland), Carrickfergus/St. Nicholas (Parish), Larne (Union), Carrickfergus (Town of)(Barony)
Lot 10
House, offices, and land
28/2/5
16/15/0, 1/10/0, 18/5/0
#14:
William Witherup
Marquis of Downshire pg 169
West Division (Townland), Carrickfergus/St. Nicholas (Parish), Larne (Union), Carrickfergus (Town of)(Barony)
Lot 14
House and land
39?/0/30
11/0/0, 1/0/0, 12/0/0
#15:
James Dorman
Valentine W. Magill
Ballynere, Middle Division (Twnlnd), Carrickfergus/St. Nicholas (Parish), Larne (Union), Carrickfergus (Town of)(Barony)
Lot 160
House, offices, and land
22/0/5
11/0/0, 1/0/0, 12/0/0
note: Marquess of Downshire in 1862 would be Arthur Hill, 4th Marquess, KP
A little about the history of the area ...
ReplyDeleteCarrickfergus is on the north shore of Belfast Lough, about 10 miles from Belfast and 14 miles from Larne.
In the 6th century King Fergus of Scotland was shipwrecked on a large flat rock which extends out into the sea at that point and gave the area the name Carrickfergus meaning “Rock of Fergus”.
In the 12th century Ireland was invaded by the Normans who had occupied England in the previous century. They recognised the strategic position of the rock and built a castle on it. The castle was expanded over the next few centuries and stills stand today being one of the best preserved in Ireland. A Norman church, St Nicholas Church, was also built in the 12th century and a small walled town and port grew up around the church and castle.
The presence of the castle and the port meant that Carrickfergus became one the most important towns in the north of Ireland over the next four centuries. As a result it was frequently attacked by invaders during that period. The area surrounding the town became a county in its own right – the County of the Town of Carrickfergus –and Carrickfergus was essentially the county town of the adjacent, larger County Antrim, housing the county gaol and courts.
During the Industrial Revolution in the 19th century, Belfast grew from a village to a commercial city and Carrickfergus’ strategic and economic importance gradually diminished. The County of Carrickfergus was absorbed into the County of Antrim in 1898. Up until the 1960s about 6,000 people lived in the town of Carrickfergus and the immediate surrounding area. Since then the population has grown to about 27,000 and today it is essentially a commuter town for those working in Belfast.
Ballynure is the nearest village of any size to Carrickfergus, being about four miles inland and to the north-west of the town. The area between the two is essentially farm land, encompassing the Middle and West Divisions of Carrickfergus and the townlands surrounding Ballynure itself.
The Plantation of Ulster in the 17th century saw the area being colonised by Scottish Presbyterian settlers. Their descendants were then part of the Ulster-Scots migration to North America in the 18th and 19th centuries. The ancestors of the American statesman and soldier Sam Houston came from the Ballynure area as did those of the American general Alexander Macomb. The author Mark Twain (Samuel Langhorne Clemens) is also frequently claimed to be a ‘son’ of the Ballynure/Ballyclare area. In addition the parents of the American statesman President Andrew Jackson came from the outskirts of Carrickfergus.
In the 19th century the population of the area immediately around Ballynure was only several hundred, mainly farming families, and today it is still a small village amid surrounding farmland.
Thank you Neal!
ReplyDeleteI've just got one little tidbit to add:
In the United States (and apparently in the USA only), "Ulster-Scots", is always called "Scotch-Irish"
In the other post/thread Neal had posted entries from "Tithe Applotment Valuations". Was there a wealth threshold (or some other requirement) to be listed in those? It seems there ought to be more Weatherup's listed, just from looking at the "John" entries alone.
ReplyDeleteI also wonder if some of the "Ballylaggan near Ballynure" entries in 1816 are the same family group as the "Straidlands near Ballynure" entries in 1826 & 1833, and then might in turn be the same entries as the "Dairyland(s)" entries in later records (Griffiths in 1862, the Straid entry in Book of Antrim in the 1880s, and then on into the 1901 & 1911 censusi/census's {? What would the plural of "census" be?}), given how close all these places are (perhaps they stayed in the same place while boundaries shifted, ie was the townland of Dairyland{s} created between 1833 & 1862?)
I also note that the Dairyland(s) family in the 1901/1911 census entries (linked above) are congregationalist. Wouldn't the hamlet/village of Straid (about a mile or less to the west) be the closest congregationalist church?
As far as I know, the Tithe only applied to those with agricultural holdings over one acre so those living in towns and villages didn't have to pay at all regardless of the amount of land their house was on.
ReplyDeleteI would have thought too that there should be more Weatherups listed but perhaps there were only really five or so distinct farming family groups around 1800 (only the 'head' of each family group would be listed). That number of family groups is what my analysis of the later civil BMD records seems to be indicating. I have still some more work to do on the analysis but I may be able to post some preliminary findings soon.
I think that the Straidlands and Ballylagan groups have very close family ties given the proximity of the townlands and as you suggest the Straid Tithe families probably correspond to the later Dairyland Griffiths and 1901/11 census families. This again ties in with my BMD analysis.
You are correct too that the nearest and only Congregational Church in the Ballynure area is in Straid (records start 1837). There is also an older Congregational Church in Carrickfergus (records start 1819).
Thinking more on the John Weatherup's of the area and era...
ReplyDeleteCould one of the John's from the 'Tithe Applotment Valuations' in Ballylagan and/or Straidlands even be the same as any/all of the following:
A) John from Ballynure/Ballinare, a labourer in the 71st Foot Regiment (b. 1760s - I miscalculated his birthdate in my previous comment) (Not to be confused with John "the Gunner", b.c. 1783, from Ballypitmave, Glenavy, another contemporary John but one who has no known connection to this region)
B) John (~1782-1856/9) who married Sarah Watson (parents of Thomas of Straid). John was the son of Alexander/Thomas Weatherup & ? Doorman. John emmigrated with his son in 1847 to Northern NY.
C) John (1785-1843) who married Susan Johnson. John was the son of James Weatherup & ? Doorman and might of used the nickname "Jack". His father was born in Glenavy but was described as "of Carrickfergus"
D) John B. (1823-1899), (son of the John of entry C, above), who married Margaret Houston "from Carrickfergus" and they emmigrated to Western NY.
(any other John's of the era that I'm forgetting? Glancing through my records the other John's seem to be either in Glenavy or too young)
or are they E) Other John's whom we otherwise don't know about.
A) was deffinately in the Area, but might not of been back home by whenever in 1816 the record was made to have been recorded, and then might of been too old to be any of the later John's. I'm also presuming A) is not the same as either B) or C) given the estimated birthdate.
B) seems likely since his son Thomas is listed as born in Straid.
I didn't think that either C) nor D) were in the Straid area (as opposed to the Carrickfergus area, where there's plenty of other Weatherups to potentially tie them to), but neither do I have any info saying that they weren't closer to the Ballynure/Straid area (perhaps they and/or their kids could of described their home as being Carrickfergus, the nearest city, figuring no-one in NY would know of the Straid area). Let me stress that I'm just thinking outloud here, I don't have any proof and am just saying "What if...?"
And of course E) is always a possibility and would perhaps be the simplest explanation.
side note back on the Dairlyland(s) Weatherup's: in the 1901 census, William John's brother Thomas, a tailor, lives with the family. In the 1911 census he's in the Boyd household in Straid (entry here)
(Neal posted while I was still typing my comment up):
ReplyDelete"the Tithe only applied to those with agricultural holdings over one acre so those living in towns and villages didn't have to pay at all"
&
"only the 'head' of each family group would be listed
ok, that would seem to help explain the lack of entries then, thanks for clearing that up!
My current best guess at the moment for the John in the 1816 Tithe is as you suggest the B) John (~1782-1856/9) who married Sarah Watson. C) is more likely to be living in Carrickfergus as you suggest and D) is too young. A) is still a slim possibility. I haven't found any other Johns who were born in the late 1700s.
ReplyDeleteover here neal wrote: "Unfortunately I haven't yet come across a William born to William John and Mary Eliza Hall. I only have Margaret Jane (b1866), John (b1868) as well as Andrew."
ReplyDeleteAssuming the William John W. & Mary Eliza Hall are the same as the William John & Mary Weatherup from the above census records that I linked to, there is a son William who based on his age would be born circa 1891. There's also John born circa 1870/1 (same as the John you mention b.1868?) &
Thomas born circa 1880/1.
I was imagining that William (son of William John and Mary Eliza) would be about the same age as Andrew etc but as you have pointed out Gecko he is much younger so my suggested marriages from emeraldancestors would be too early. I notice that emeraldancestors does have a William John WITHERUP married to a Mary in 1913 in Co Antrim who may be a better bet.
ReplyDeleteI have found my information on Halls. It's not as detailed as I imagined. However this is what it shows :-
ReplyDeleteThomas Hall m Ellen McCreary
-- Ellen Hall m Samuel Weatherup
-- James Hall
---- John Hall
------- Mary Eliza m William John Weatherup
------- Matilda m Samuel Weatherup
I think that the last two Weatherups (William John and Samuel) may have been brothers but I'm not 100% sure.
I also came across this about William Weatherup the magistrate -
www.belfast-gazette.co.uk/issues/1293/pages/81/page.pdf
Actually there are even more Weatherup/Hall marriages :-
ReplyDeleteThomas Hall m Ellen McCreary
-- Ellen Hall m Samuel Weatherup
-- James Hall
---- John Hall
------- Mary Eliza m William John Weatherup
------- Matilda m Samuel Weatherup
------- John m Eliza Weatherup
------- James m Joanna Weatherup
Eliza and Joanna Weatherup were sisters and possibly second cousins of William John and Samuel. Getting complicated!
Another useful site for seeing where townlands are is www.election-maps.co.uk which are detailed online maps showing election areas for the various UK parliamentary elections. If you put on "East Antrim" for the "Westminister" search you can then pan to the Ballynure/Carrickfergus area. There is a 'layer' tab where you can choose to show townland boundaries.
ReplyDeleteA quick websearch on "Thomas Hall Ellen McCreary" turned up this, There's a few Weatherup mentions spread through different parts of that site, but unfortunately no index so you kinda have to search. It looks like this also ties in with Terry's Junkin/Jenkins - Weatherup connections. I emailed the webmaster of that site and invited him to stop by here, but the page says it was last updated in 2006 so It might not be a valid contact anymore.
ReplyDeletefrom that .pdf Neal found, the "Magistrate Weatherup" was active (at least) 1945-1947. I very briefly searched for "Justice Weatherup" and a series of cases poped up, looks like dates mostly between 2002-2006, and he's listed on Wikipedia as one of the current High Court Judges of N.I.. If he started his career very young and is in good health I suppose it's possible they are one and the same, but more likely it's two different people.
Thanks for the link to the townland mapping site. It's a very slow loading site, but worth it to finally see the townlands mapped in this area. Straidlands, Dairyland, and Ballylaggan do indeed all share a common boundary. I presume that site shows the modern day boundaries?
I had known about John's Jenkins website. I had an email conversation with him several years ago. I tried to contact him again four or five years ago on that email address and didn't get a reply. I hope he does respond as he may have some new useful info.
ReplyDeleteThey are the modern townland boundaries on the mapping site but I would guess they haven't changed much, if at all, over the centuries.
and a thread started by "stevenson" at rootschat provides yet more Hall-Weatherup connections.
ReplyDeleteAssuming John Jenkins's and the rootschat info is correct, then the tree is even more interconnected:
Thomas Hall m Ellen McCreary
-- Ellen Hall m Samuel Weatherup
-- James Hall
---- John Hall
------ Mary Eliza Hall m. William John Weatherup
------ Matilda Hall m. Samuel Weatherup
------ John Hall m. Eliza Weatherup
------ James Hall m. Joanna Weatherup
---- Patrick Hall m. Sarah ?
------ Jane Hall, m. David Weatherup 1887 in Carrickfergus 1st Presbyterian Ch.
---- Ellen Hall m. Samuel Junkin/Jenkins*
---- Mary Hall m. Thomas Weatherup (possibly the same Thomas as the ancestor of the Northern NY Weatherups and his first wife Mary?)
*=Samuel Junkin/Jenkins was the son of John Junkin & Ann Weatherup, Ann being the dau. of "John Snr.". Further, Samuel J's 2nd wife, Susanna Dempsey left in her 1905 will £20 to "Gd daughter Lizzie Weatherup". I don't know if that's 'granddaughter' (J.Jenkins site doesn't list any such granddau.) or 'God-daughter' but I wonder if Samuel & Susanna are perhaps the Grandparents of Terry's Elizabeth/Eliza Jenkins who married John Weatherup in 1885?
If anyone is a rootschat member, maybe you could post on that thread pointing 'stevenson' over here?
If the township boundaries haven't changed, then either the various Ballylag(g)an, Straidlands, Dairyland(s) Weatherups are not all the same line OR they were moving around in a small area.
ReplyDeleteParticularily notable is that Ballylag(g)an was part of the Dobbs estate (Lord of the Manor of Ballynure) whereas Straid(land) and Dairyland were parts of the Mqs. of Downshire plantation. (though I also thought I had come across mentions of a 'Dalway' estate in both Straid and Ballynure - but I'm not re-finding that reference at the moment). In Griffiths, everyone in Ballylagan (and Ballynarry) is a tenant of (or a tenant of a tenant of) Conway R. Dobbs, while everyone in Straid (townland and village) & Dairyland is a tenant of (or a tenant of a tenant of) the Marquis of Downshire.
I have heard it reported by one of his descendants that the first wife of Thomas who emigrated, was his cousin. I had always assumed she would be a Weatherup but she could of course be a cousin through marriage. I don't think I currently have any other Thomas's in that timeframe whose spouse's maiden name are unknown, so it could very well be that this is the correct Mary!
ReplyDeleteI have posted a reply to "stevenson" on rootsweb chat pointing him here. I noticed that he mentioned that the Mary of the Mary and Thomas Weatherup went to the USA. Beginning to look a very promising lead.
ReplyDeleteFound an interesting tidbit here. It was disputed whether or not Straid (and Little Ballymena) was part of Carrickfergus or of Antrim. In 1810 in a court (assizes) ruling determined that it was part of Antrim. A few pages later and it almost seems to be implying that Ballylagin IS part of Carrickfergus.
ReplyDeleteFirst a PS to my previous message: Looking at the ordinance survey memoirs it also includes Ballylaggan within Carrickfergus rather than Antrim.
ReplyDeleteLooking again at the Tithe Applotment records Neal had posted and the various John's:
Ann Weatherup who married John Jenkins/Junkins is listed as the dau. of John "Snr", I bet this would be John the soldier from the 71st of Ballinare (Ballynure?) (the John I labled option A). Since he's called 'Senior' that could likely imply that he had a son also named John - though it could also just be to distinquish him as the elder of two John Weatherup's (cousins? possibly even to distinquish from him from (B)).
Assuming John in Ballylaggan in 1816 is indeed the B) John who emmigrated in 1847 to northern New York, then-
There's two John's in Straidlands in 1826 & one in 1833. One of the 2 in 1826 is likely still the same John (B), but who is the other 1826 John? option (A) returned from military service? or (C) perhaps?, or a son of (A)? Or did (B) have another son named John who didn't follow his father and brother to the new world?
But then what about the 1833 John? (A) is likely too old to be the one here. Either it's still option (B) (in which case what happened to the other John from 1826 if that wasn't (A)?) or it's the same as the other John from 1826 (but then where is B? he'd be about 44 years old so still of farming age, right? assuming he was ever a farmer.).
That makes me think that while the John in 1833 and one of the one's in 1826 may or may not be option (B), but, the 1816 John I think is not (B) but either (A), (E), or a son of (A) who's also named John.
moving past the John's to the other records:
The James of Eden in 1816- Could this be the James who married one of the Do(o)rmans?
Neal wrote that the Samuel & William from 1816 are unlikely to be the Samuel & William born around 1800. I would tend to agree, but I suppose it could be possible they are one and the same.
William in Ballylaggan in 1816: Perhaps the William Weatherup who married one of the Do(o)rmans? He's the suspected ancestor of one of the two Ontario branch's of Weatherups and might of emmigrated himself.
Thomas in Ardboley, Middle Div., Carrick. in 1816- Neal wrote 'possibly the Thomas b. 1789', but I'm wondering more about his (and Samuel & William & etc.'s) Father - which could mean that option (B) and the various siblings are on the family farm in Arbdoley in 1816.
The Samuel from Siskin, West Div., Carrick. is the tricky one though.
David in Straidlands in 1826 & 1833- Neal, Is that the "elder" David you had mentioned seeing in records?
David or the John from 1833 would seem to be the parents (or grandparents?) of Thomas and William John from later records in Dairyland.
I'm wondering if there's a whole tree descending from John the soldier (A) that we know nothing about which might include this David, Samuel, and a John Jr. and maybe others (ie some of these other Weatherup-Hall marriages)? After all, Alexandria had mentioned there being 2 batches of Weatherups in Ballyclare area, right?
On another, unrelated note, could the Samuel Weatherup who married Matilda Hall and was father of Andrew in 1890, be the same Samuel as the one born 1846, son of William Weatherup & Margaret Thompson?
William John and Mary Eliza are my gg grandparents through marriage with the Kennedys, another large family or possibly discrete families that intermarried with both Halls and Weatherups.
ReplyDeleteI have the father of Samuel Weatherup (m Matilda Hall) as Samuel not William. Unfortunately Samuel isn't a very distinctive forename (Sam Kennedy's in the family were nicknamed) and I have 4 Samuel Weatherups - it would be neat to say that Joanna & Eliza's father was also Matilda's husband's father but Irene1251 (http://boards.ancestry.co.uk/surnames.weatherup/4.2.1/mb.ashx) says otherwise.
I need to state a correction, regarding the issue of Straid being part of Carrickfergus or of Antrim. I think I misunderstood the legaleese in the ruling. Neal pointed me to a googlebook copy of "the History and antiquities of the county of the town of Carrickfergus". Questions over which county the area belonged to had been disputed since before 1635.
ReplyDeleteThe 1810 ruling was "That the lands of Straid and Little-ballymena, were without the franchises, though still belonging to the corporation." I took that to mean that it was owned by the town of Carrick., but that it was outside the county of Carrickfergus. Now I think that it is (roughly) the otherway around - It's part of the county [corporate] but is outside the boundaries of the town. Of course in 1898 the 2 counties merged anyhow, mooting the issue.
electrictelgraph-
ReplyDeleteThat's your line? You'll probably be interested in some of the census (& etc.) sources I linked to further up then (my 2nd comment from June 23rd and the last paragraph of my last comment from the same date). Has that bunch of Weatherup's stayed in the Dairyland/Straid area, or have they since moved elsewhere (as in after 1911 to present)? Do you know if their ancestry traces back to the Glenavy area like many, (if not all,) of the other Weatherup groups?
Neal was thinking that the Samuel (b. 1843) who married Matilda Hall might of been the son of John Weatherup & Mary Forsythe, and thus brother of William John Weatherup who married Mary Eliza Hall, but he wasn't sure. Samuel was a son of a Samuel? Neal's BMD search turned up one such: Samuel (b.1823) son of Samuel but that he married Jane Watson and that they were the parents of the Joanna & Eliza who married James & John Hall.
A quick reply to some points because I need to check up on others.
ReplyDeleteI'm very interested and the Hall stuff was really helpful - I'll try to get back with more detail on that one.
The Weatherups and the Halls were still there in the 40s & 50s (and seem to have continued to intermarry!). There has been a lot of movement since then - I'm well out of touch with that part of the family.
I wasn't aware of the Glenavy connection until I read about it here. I got must of my original material from those closer to the family and I've been concentrating elsewhere. I assumed the Weatherups arrived in Carrickfergus port (once the main port in Ulster) and tired of the travelling set up home. Carrick is a central point for Larne, Belfast and Straid/Ballynure/Ballyclare. Glenavy is quite a jaunt inland for the family to then move in numbers back to Carrick - shows how it doesn't do to apply logic to family history!
Too big for one post so read this with the next.
ReplyDeleteFrom Gecko's post on the Halls I matched up what I had already with James Hall's will and Kerrie Picken's tree and arrived at the following:
1st Generation
1. Thomas Hall died on an unknown date. He married Ellen Hall [McCreary].
Children of Thomas Hall and Ellen Hall [McCreary]
---- i. 2. James Hall died on Jul. 7, 1877 in Toreagh, Raloo, Co Antrim.
2nd Generation
2. James Hall died on Jul. 7, 1877 in Toreagh, Raloo, Co Antrim. He married Esther Hall [Lyle].
Children of James Hall and Esther Hall [Lyle]
---- i. 3. John Hall died on May 12, 1890.
---- ii. 4. Matthew Hall died on an unknown date.
---- iii. 5. Jenny Drummond [Hall] died on an unknown date.
---- iv. 6. Ellen Junkin [Hall] was born in 1828 in Raloo and died in 1854.
---- v. 7. Thomas Hall died on an unknown date.
---- vi. 8. Esther Hall died on an unknown date.
---- vii. 9. Robert Hall died on an unknown date.
---- viii. 10. Lyle Hall was born on Sep. 17, 1835 in Ballygowan and died on an unknown date.
---- ix. 11. Patrick Hall died on an unknown date.
---- x. 12. Samuel Hall died on an unknown date.
---- xi. 13. Margaret Hume [Hall] died on an unknown date.
3rd Generation
3. John Hall died on May 12, 1890. He married 1st Jean Hall [McCartney]. He married 2nd Mary Hall [Steel], daughter of James Steel, on Dec. 23, 1879 in Larne Registry Office.
Children of John Hall and Jean Hall [McCartney]
---- i. 14. Jenny Lyle [Hall] was born About 1844 and died on an unknown date.
---- ii. 15. Mary Eliza Weatherup [Hall] was born in 1845 and died on an unknown date.
---- iii. 16. James Hall was born About 1847 and died on an unknown date.
---- iv. 17. Matilda Weatherup [Hall] was born in 1849 and died on an unknown date.
---- v. 18. John Hall.
---- vi. 19. Ellen McBride [Hall] died on an unknown date.
---- vii. 20. Esther Stewart [Hall] died on an unknown date.
4. Matthew Hall died on an unknown date.
5. Jenny Drummond [Hall] died on an unknown date.
6. Ellen Junkin [Hall] was born in 1828 in Raloo and died in 1854. She married Samuel Junkin on Jan. 20, 1848 in Raloo Presbyterian Church. Samuel, son of John Junkin and Ann Junkin [Weatherup], was born on Nov. 3, 1825 in Straidlands, Co Antrim and died on Feb. 27, 1886 in Straidlands, Co Antrim.
Children of Ellen Junkin [Hall] and Samuel Junkin
---- i. 21. James Junkin / Jenkins died on an unknown date.
---- ii. 22. Ann (Anna) Forsythe [Junkin / Jenkins] was born in 1847 and died on an unknown date.
---- iii. 23. Esther Junkin / Jenkins was born in 1853 and died in Ridgway, Pennsylvania, USA.
7. Thomas Hall died on an unknown date.
8. Esther Hall died on an unknown date.
9. Robert Hall died on an unknown date.
10. Lyle Hall was born on Sep. 17, 1835 in Ballygowan and died on an unknown date.
11. Patrick Hall died on an unknown date. He married Sarah Jane Hall [McWilliam] on Dec. 30, 1864 in Raloo Presbyterian Church.
Children of Patrick Hall and Sarah Jane Hall [McWilliam]
---- i. 24. James Hall died on an unknown date.
---- ii. 25. Esther Lyle Hall was born on Oct. 9, 1866 in Ballynure, Co Antrim and died on an unknown date.
12. Samuel Hall died on an unknown date. He married Eliza Hall.
13. Margaret Hume [Hall] died on an unknown date. She married Thomas Hume on Aug. 5, 1859 in Raloo Presbyterian Church.
4th generation
ReplyDelete14. Jenny Lyle [Hall] was born About 1844 and died on an unknown date. She married William Lyle on Nov. 18, 1867 in Carrickfergus. William, son of James Lyle, was born About 1833 in Co Antrim and died on an unknown date.
15. Mary Eliza Weatherup [Hall] was born in 1845 and died on an unknown date. She married William John Weatherup on Jan. 18, 1865 in Straid Congregational Church, Ballynure, Co Antrim. William John, son of John Weatherup and ? Weatherup, was born in 1838 and died in 1932.
16. James Hall was born About 1847 and died on an unknown date. He married Joanna Hall [Weatherup] in 1885 in Antrim. Joanna, daughter of Samuel Weatherup and Jane Weatherup, was born on Mar. 23, 1855 and died on Sep. 2, 1947.
17. Matilda Weatherup [Hall] was born in 1849 and died on an unknown date. She married Samuel Weatherup in 1879 in Antrim. Samuel, son of Samuel Weatherup, was born About 1849 and died on an unknown date.
18. John Hall. He married Eliza Hall [Weatherup] in 1878 in Co Antrim. Eliza, daughter of Samuel Weatherup and Jane Weatherup, was born About 1857 in Co Antrim and died on an unknown date.
19. Ellen McBride [Hall] died on an unknown date.
20. Esther Stewart [Hall] died on an unknown date. She married Samuel Stewart, son of Robert Stewart, in 1861.
21. James Junkin / Jenkins died on an unknown date.
22. Ann (Anna) Forsythe [Junkin / Jenkins] was born in 1847 and died on an unknown date. She married Edward Forsythe on Nov. 17, 1868 in Ballynure, Antrim, Ireland. Edward, son of James Forsythe, was born in 1838 and died on an unknown date.
23. Esther Junkin / Jenkins was born in 1853 and died in Ridgway, Pennsylvania, USA.
24. James Hall died on an unknown date.
25. Esther Lyle Hall was born on Oct. 9, 1866 in Ballynure, Co Antrim and died on an unknown date.
A couple of notes: James Hall's children are from his will. He thoughtfully listed the deceased as well as the living (doesn't mean there aren't un-named children though). He doesn't name his wife but I got lucky - not knowing Lyle Hall was related I took his details from Ballynure PC baptismal records a couple of weeks ago anyway and it named his mother. I now need to check the rest of the family! There was no mention of Mary (m Thomas Weatherup) in James's will and Kerrie Pickin doesn't have her either - I'll have to chase that up.
ReplyDeleteJohn Hall also wrote a will. He names his wife as Mary but other sources say Jean (McCartney in the Picken tree). I found the marriage to Mary in emeraldancestors and all details seem to match but it is very late and in a registry office, hence I believe a second marriage.
I haven't included Ellen m Samuel Weatherup because there are several possibilities and I need to work them through.
Hope this is right and it helps!
electrictelegraph-
ReplyDeletewow, lots of Hall info. You'd probably also be interested in John Jenkins site - and not just the hall section of his site - the Lyle & Junkins sections has connected info as well. I also came across this site with lots of Ballynure weatherup's which includes some Kennedy connections for you.
#2, 16, & 24: there's 2 James Hall's in the 1876 Antrim landowners list, but #24's probably too young to be one of them.
#3 wasn't a reverend by any chance? the 1846 Slaters directory under Ballyclare and Neighbourhood (thus inc. Ballynure) lists a Rev. John Hall as minister of the Unitarian chapel. I've been wanting to check the 1824 Pigot's guide for various things, but I don't know what section to find Ballynure (nor Glenavy) under in that guide.
# 11 & 12: Both a Patrick and a Samuel Hall are listed in the 1876 landowners as address: Toreagh, Raloo, each owning a little over 10 acres in Antrim.
I'm wondering who the Hume family in #13 is- I have Hume's in another line that allegidely trace back to Co. Antrim.
#14: in the 1876 landowners list there is a James Lyle of Fortstewart who had a large holding (1107+ acres).
Neal says the mother-in-law of #15 is Mary Forsythe
likewise he has the mother-in-law of #16 & #18 as Jane Watson
still wondering about Samuel son of Samuel from #17
21: A James "Jonkins" of Rugby-road held 1 acre in the 1876 landowners list (the smallest holding size listed)
I’d just filled in Jane Watson yesterday and pencilled in Mary Forsythe so it’s good to get confirmation.
ReplyDeleteSamuel, son of Samuel in 17 above: the timeline is perfect to have him as eldest son of Samuel & Jane. They were married late 1847 and had a son Samuel, he was born around 1849. If it is the same person Weatherup siblings Joanna, Eliza & Samuel all married Hall siblings (and another Hall sibling married William Weatherup from another family). I’ll see if I can get anything more on this. Normally this would be plenty but there are so many Samuel Weatherups (and Williams) I’m cautious.
And on Samuels, Neal has listed children of Samuel (1800 – 1873) but doesn’t include a Samuel. Samuel’s will doesn’t mention one either but the marriage record for Samuel Weatherup (b about 1823) m Jane Watson has his father as Samuel making him a contemporary of 1800 Slievetrue Samuel.
Pigot’s guide seems to be a commercial directory and therefore doesn’t list villages etc which don’t have much business. The choice of towns doesn’t seem very logical but there may be reasons for this (Gilford is barely a village now but it was a mill town). Ballyclare is and was a market town and I’m surprised it doesn’t make it.
Thanks again, this has given me plenty to be getting on with!
electrictelegraph: I believe that the father of Samuel (b1823) m Jane Watson was another Samuel different from my Samuel (b1800). I reckon this other Samuel was probably born between 1780 and 1790. My email address is neal.curran "at" lineone.net, drop me an email and I will email you back what I have, it's too long and difficult to post here.
ReplyDeleteI have seen a list of the children of James Hall from a book produced by one of his descendants and it doesn't mention a Mary either so I also wonder about Thomas Weatherup's wife being Mary Hall.
ReplyDeleteelectrictelegraph
ReplyDeletere Samuel, son of Samuel as Son of Samuel & Jane [Watson], thus a Samuel III? perhaps, and it wouldn't be the first time for 3 Weatherup siblings to marry 3 other siblings, though there would then be an 8 year gap before the birth of the second child [Joanna]. Is that 1847 marriage date for Samuel W. & Jane Watson?
Yes, It looks like there were at least two contemporary Samuel Weatherup's (as Neal wrote in his reply):
Samuel of Slievetrue (b~1800 who married Ellenor Hall) had children: Margaret (1823), Ellen (1826), Thomas (1829), David (circa 1832), Jane (1835), & Mary (1838)
while the other Samuel (Neal estimates birth at around 1780-90, and mentions a possibility that he might have married Ann Porter - uncofirmed!) had children: Nancy, Andrew (1814), William (1818), John (1820), & Samuel (1823 - the one who married Jane Watson)
then there's also possibly a Elizabeth (b.1829, who in 1854 married Thomas Conditt) dau of one of the Samuels (Neal thinks it is likely the 2nd Samuel.
Very good point about Pigot's - there may indeed be no entry at all for Glenavy & Ballynure, I hadn't considered that.
Neal- Does the list from a descendent match the list in the will?
to all who don't already know- my new email is "GPWeatherup####@gmail.com", replace the 4 #'s with the current western calendar year [thus "2011" at the time of writing this] - Greg W.
My mother is a Weatherup. My grandfather had brothers called John, Samuel and James. They also had a sister called Bell. They all lived in belfast and I know the family came from carrickfergus. Bell and James are still alive.
ReplyDeleteThese are the children of James Hall and Esther Lyle given in the book "These Seventy Years" :-
ReplyDeleteJohn, Dairyland
Thomas, Ballyrickard
David, New York
Samuel, Raloo
Margaret (Hume), Glenoe
Jennie (Drummond), Ballygown
Patrick, Raloo
William, New Jersey
Ellen (Jenkins), Little Ballymena
Esther (Hill), Belfast
Robert, New York
Lyle, Raloo
Matthew, Ballyfore
montyw- We know there's a few modern day Weatherups in Belfast and in Bangor, but not a lot of info on their history (ie if they are connected to the Carrickfergus/Ballynure or the Glenavy branch's of the Weatherup's). Can you give us some info on what timeframe were talking about with your grandparents?
ReplyDeleteI don't remember seeing any Weatherups in the 1824 Pigots directory (though I didn't look in Bangor) nor in the Slaters 1846 directory, but I apparently didn't save those downloads to double check on that.
In the Griffiths evaluation (1862 in that area I think) there is a Thomas on Brown's Street
No Weatherups are listed in the 1876 Landowners directory (which lists anyone who held more than an acre). Though I didn't look in Co. Down.
Looking at Belfast directories, there's none in the 1861 or prior directories that I know of online, but in the 1877 one there is a Thomas D. Weatherup, Clerk, at 11 Limestone Road. Apparently the same as the Thomas Donald who later is in Carrickfergus with his family. (his wife and a daughter are with the wife's {Shaw} family in the 1911 census in Belfast). This Thomas Donald was born in 1853 so I don't think he is the same one in the 1862 Griffiths evaluation.
In the 1880 directory there is J. & S. Weatherup, grocers & spirit dealers occupying 42 to 46 Great George's.
Oddly no Weatherup's listed in the 1901 directory, but see below about the 1901 census.
In the 1907 Belfast directory there are 2 Weatherup's: James Weatherup, a "manager" in (of?) Cheswick, Cavehill Road and Wm. Weatherup, a "traveler" at 2 Indiana Avenue.
I'm not aware of any more recent Belfast directories online beyond modern phonebook listings.
Census records for Belfast are a bit tricky, because A) Belfast is split between Antrim & Down, & B) the results are given by DED so you have to know if a particular division or Ward is part of Belfast or not.
In 1901 in Duncairn Ward (which is apparently part of Belfast) there are 3 entries:
- In the Gordon Household on Moyola Street is a 32 yr old Boarder William Weatherup, Presbyterian, a Wholesale Traveler for Grocer's
- In the Wilson household on Shore Road in a 26 yr old Boarder Anthony P Weatherup, Baptist, a Mill Manager.
- and there is one Weatherup household on Ruth Street, consisting of a sole inhabitant- Mary Weatherup, 44, Presbyterian, not married, listed as having a "Weak Heart".
In Co. Down there are also Weatherups in Ormeau & Victoria, but I'm not sure if those places are part of Belfast or not.
A couple of Weatherup's in various parts of Ireland in the 1901 census (some of the Carrickfergus entries, and the one's in Londonderry & Louth) are listed as having been born in Belfast.
In the 1911 census in Co. Antrim there are Weatherup's in Smithfield, Clifton, Court Ward, Windsor, & Windsor Ward, those places might or might not be part of Belfast, I'm not sure.
Meanwhile in Co. Down there are Weatherup's in Victoria & Ormeau, again, I'm not sure if those are parts of Belfast or not. Plus there are Weatherup entries in Bangor. It might be worth looking through the 1911 entries to try to find your branch at the time.
Neal- that Hall children info matches 99% then with John Jenkin's info on his site.
I believe all the places Gecko has mentioned are in Belfast. I'm working through wills at the minute and there is an intriguing Bangor one.
ReplyDeleteSamuel Weatherup (incidentally montyw you'll find virtually every Weatherup has siblings called Samuel, James and John; Bell is more unusual but Isabella more common than now) of Ballymagee Bangor died in the police barracks in Bangor. In his will he names the same two executors as William Weatherup senior of Seskin but gives them Bangor addresses. The will was written in 1900 and in the 1901 census both executors appear to have the original addresses William gave them in 1896.
William senior's will indicates that he is sharing his home with nephew William and a niece. Maybe William had a Bangor holding. In any case a William turns up in his address in Balloo in Bangor in 1911 with sons Samuel and John who, I'm guessing, are about the right age. With a little more information you could verify this one.
And having scribbled little family trees for most of the available wills it looks (unexpectedly) like the Bangor Weatherups are related to my line - from John (1820) brother to my Samuel (see Gecko July 18 on this page).
ReplyDeleteOn Samuel, son of Samuel and Jane Watson (Gecko July 16 2011), I found his DoB - Aug 13 1848 - in my notes for Ballynure Presbyterian baptisms and it's as good a match as you'll get for Samuel married to Matilda Hall from 1911 census (approx 1849). So it looks like they are one and the same. The marriage date for Samuel & Jane is Nov 29 1847 in Carrickfergus First Presbyterian Church.
ReplyDeleteChildren of Jane Weatherup [Watson] and Samuel Weatherup
--Samuel Weatherup was born on Aug. 13, 1848 in Carrick.
--Agnes McDowell [Weatherup] was born on Jun. 27, 1850.
--Joanna Hall [Weatherup] was born on Mar. 23, 1855 and died on Sep. 2, 1947.
--Mary Kennedy [Weatherup] was born in 1856.
--Eliza Hall [Weatherup] was born About 1857 in Co Antrim.
--Jane Weatherup.
--Sarah McCalister [Weatherup].
--Andrew Weatherup was born on Jun. 23, 1870 in Co Antrim.
electrictelegraph: I think Samuel and Jane also might have had a son John born about 1863.
ReplyDeleteI have this transcription of a John Weatherup's (second?) marriage :-
19th February 1897
John Weatherup, full age, widower, farmer, Quarterland West, Carrickfergus
son of Samuel Weatherup, farmer
to Mary Ann Vint, full age, spinster, Ballyhone
daughter of James Vint, farmer.
Witnesses David Lewis? and Margaret Vint.
The 1911 census shows the above John as being 48 and his wife 50 with a 12 year old son Samuel.
They are residing in the West Division.
Just a note - The Carrickfergus Museum had an exhibition entitled, "Meet the Weatherups" in May - June of 2007. My sister had found it online back in 2007, with much more info. Now I can only find the museum pamphlet. It states, "The pupils are taken through the story of what life was like for this real-life Carrickfergus Victorian family. To learn about the family, pupils engage in dressing up, handling genuine Victorian artefacts as well as a range of other interactive tasks.
ReplyDeleteTouring the Victorian section of the new Museum and using activity sheets, the pupils also get a chance to see for themselves Mrs. Weatherup's actual 1886 wedding dress."
I would love to be privy to all the info they presented as well as any photographs... They must keep an archive, wouldn't you think?
Perhaps I'll write the museum.
If you'd like to see the pamphlet, google "carrickfergus museum weatherup family exhibition."
Hi
ReplyDeleteNot sure where this discussion came from but thought I'd chip in my bit.
I'm currently researching my family tree and am reading the original copy of Sue Allen's "Living in Hope". Sue is my mother's cousin and the book is based around three women from the Witherup/Weatherup side of my family.
My Nan was born in 1924 to William Weatherup and Edith May. So far, I've not got very far with this part of the family history.
I know that in the first woman's story in the above book, John Witherup was from Antrim County near Glenavy Village (Ballinderry) and married Mary Hendren, who was born in 1793. They later emigrated to Canada after John was medically discharged from the army.
Not sure if this is at all related but am reaching out in the hope of obtaining more information!
Cheers
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteHi
ReplyDeleteNot sure where this discussion came from but thought I'd chip in my bit.
I'm currently researching my family tree and am reading the original copy of Sue Allen's "Living in Hope". Sue is my mother's cousin and the book is based around three women from the Witherup/Weatherup side of my family.
My Nan was born in 1924 to William H Weatherup and Edith Masters but was raised by Edith's mother, Annie. E Masters (nee Middleton). So far, I've not got very far with this part of the family history.
I know that in the first woman's story in the above book, John Witherup was from Antrim County near Glenavy Village (Ballinderry) and married Mary Hendren, who was born in 1793. They later emigrated to Canada after John was medically discharged from the army.
Not sure if this is at all related but am reaching out in the hope of obtaining more information!
Cheers
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteTo electrictelegraph.So,So sorry of course my grandfather Thomas WEATHERUP'S only living sister was Jeannie as two sisters died as teenagers.THOMAS WEATHERUP (my grandfather)married JANE BEGGS McCURDY daughter of AGNES(neeBEGGS)& JOHN McCURDY,they farmed at "BALLNASHEE HOUSE"BALLYCLARE.SAM WEATHERUP MARRIED MATILDA HALL,he was brother to WILLIAM JOHN. D LYLE HALL SHOP IN BELFAST WAS SAME RELATION.BOOK was written @ myGRANDFATHER TOM WAS LAST MENTIONED IN IT. WOULD YOU CONTACT THOMAS CARLISLE(GRANDSON OF AGNES & ANDREW WEATHERUP.THANKS
ReplyDeleteMHW THOMAS WEATHERUP LIVED AT "DAIRYLANDS"STRAID UNTIL HE RETIRED IN 1950'S.THEN HE BUILT A HOUSE ON GREEN ROAD BALLYCLARE WHERE HE RETIRED.THE WEATHERUP/KENNEDY CONNECTION IS BECAUSE SAMUEL KENNEDY'S BROTHER PLUS SISTERS MOTHER WAS MARGARET JANE(JEANNIE) WEATHERUP.
ReplyDeleteRevised version--MY GRANDFATHER IS THOMAS WEATHERUP,HE FARMED AT HOME FARM "DAIRYLANDS"STRAID,BALLYNURE,HE &HIS WIFE JANE HAD ONE CHILD(MY MOTHER)AGNES{NESSIE}.MY GREAT GRANDFATHER WAS WILLIAM JOHN@ HE MARRIED MARY ELIZA HALL,THEY HAD DAUGHTER MARGARET JANE(JEANNIE)SONS JOHN,FARMER.ANDREW,FARMER.THOMAS,FARMER.WILLIAM,RESIDENT MAGISTRATE.SAM WORKED IN WAR OFFICE & LATTERLY A HIGH POWERED JOB IN IRAQ IN EARLY 30'S SAM HAD 4 CHILDREN,SON DONALD WAS A COLONOL IN BRITISH ARMY@ENDED UP IN HIGH RANK IN N.A.T.O.HIS BROTHER FRANK LIVED IN DURBAN,S.A.TWO SISTERS MARY&JEAN.DONALD HAD ONE SON,DAVID,HE IS A LECTURER IN DUBAI.WILLIAM R.M. @THE PRESENT DAY JUDGE WEATHERUP ARE TWO DIFFERENT PEOPLE BUT RELATED.WILLIAM JOHN &SAM ARE BROTHERS.THANKS FOR BEING INTRESTED IN WEATHERUP FAMILY.HOPE THIS HELPS WITH YOUR VARIOUS QUERIES.M.H.W.
ReplyDeleteThanks MHW, that is very helpful. I'll contact Tom (I have a tel. number).
ReplyDeleteAll
ReplyDeleteI've been doing a lot of research on McAlisters (my wife's ancestors) who were farmers in the area throughout the late 1700s and 1800s, and they come up with all the same placenames (Ardboley, Ballylaggan, Ballyfore, Straid, Dairyland). They were evidently on good terms with the Weatherups as intermarriages happened periodically!
There was a closely related group of McAlisters at Isle of Glass / Raloo / Loughmourne who again evidently knew the Weatherups as some of the marriage records are witnessed by Weatherups.
I've tried to build a family tree on Ancestry purely from official records as I find that there is a lot of dubious information which can be propagated and perpetuated if carelessly-assembled family trees are believed - including mothers who had children at 5 years old, fathers who died 3 years before their son was born etc.. I have not yet made my family tree public on Ancestry but am happy to share it with anyone with similar genealogy interests in the same region.
My great-great grandmother was Agnes Weatherup 1808-1884. She married Alexander Crowe of Headwood, Balyboley
ReplyDeleteHello.... lot of weatherup stuff here but just wanted to know which James Weatherup lived in my house?? Maybe connected to the water service and lived at the middle dam house in Bryangtang Carrickfergus??
ReplyDeleteis this blog on the Weatherup family still active ?
ReplyDeleteI am not in the Weatherup line, but the second wife of Thomas Weatherup 1819-1894 was Eliza Jenkins Whiteford, and Eliza was the sister of my g2grandfather David Whiteford. I am in the Finger Lakes region of central NY, and visited St Lawrence county last August to pay my respects at the graves of all the above.
I hope to visit City Point National Cemetery on my way south in January, and pay my respects to "the 3 cousins" as my great-aunt called them:
James Weatherup, son of Thomas Weatherup and his first wife Sarah Watson
Hugh Jenkins, son of David Jenkins and Jane Whiteford
John Whiteford, son of David Whiteford and Jennie Jenkins
all 3 were privates in Company A of the 142nd NY, and all 3 were KIA May 20 -July 9 1864